deleted by creator
Well, the issue will be developers of other apps would force us to re-google since any build of the app would be useless unless installed from the play store…
MicroG devs are working on fakeing play integrity api since 2023: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/2050
it seems that play integrity continue to change internally day to day… He is waiting that google stabilize it. Then will be a pull request.
Are they? Other comments in different PRs seem to indicate they have no intention of trying to subvert play integrity. Is there something more recent than this that indicates they’re trying?
Yeah, maybe “working on” was too generous, “aware of the issue and some preliminary work was already done” would have been more correct
Here is some recent discussion if it’s feasible at all: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/pull/2077
ReVanced patching will become more common
For every single app where the developer tries this?
Yeah right. That’s unsustainable.
They’ll also just increase ways for the integrity to verify it hasn’t been patched. This announcement already says they’re checking the app’s binary for tampering.
“
Lifehackers findsa way”
And…move to iOS? The even more locked down platform? What solution are you proposing here?
You can degoogle on Android you know. Takes some effort, but the end result is better than moving into a walled garden.
You can degoogle on Android you know.
only if your device is supported. Most aren’t…
Lineage OS supports a few hundred devices
LineageOS with microg works for most devices
Issue is that it is no secure. People should be buying pixels flashing calyx or graphene going forward for their next upgrade IMHO
Issue is that it is no secure.
Explain. I’m tired of hearing this boogeyman, tell me exactly how Lineage is “not secure” but Graphene is?
Then maybe give me some examples of cases where that difference has actually been a problem.
Because it feels like a lot of these “unsecure” things people hand-wring over are really just user freedoms they may user to hurt themselves, not actual vulnerabilities that can’t be avoided with common sense.
Primarily because bootloader is not lockable, plus delayed updates.
Also, they do some weird thing with how it is developed. I think it is always in some weird “developer” state but I don’t remember details.
You can degoogle on Android you know.
Not if the app doesn’t work outside of Google’s app store, you can’t…?
Those are really quite rare. Most have workarounds these days or just work outright.
Apps that don’t work are usually the worst privacy offenders lol
People will need to make a choice, corpos won’t make it easier for the slave
I mean, you can be as snotty about this as you like, but it doesn’t change the fact this “choice” is basically between participate in the same digital world as most people do with the most popular, most supported, and highest value apps, vs only what you can use in F Droid or something?
You’re calling them slaves but can you give them anything more appealing outside the walled garden than “privacy”? It’s not like everything on the play store has an F-Droid corollary. You’re basically telling them to dramatically reduce their own use case. Does that make them a slave?
Something AOSP like Lineage OS
You can install MicroG if you need play compatibility
That will not solve the problem in OP…
No play store no problems
Except there is a problem because you can no longer download apps from outside the Play Store. That’s what it says in the OP.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills…
deleted by creator
I agree but I don’t understand what this has to do with the OP.
deleted by creator
Better to get out now
And again I ask, and go where? Your choices for mobile OSs are:
- Apple
Choose Google and there’s no way around this issue. Choose Apple and you’ve locked yourself into an even more closed ecosystem.
Than to wait until they’re so engrained in our lives that they become a shadow government
Far too late for that, I’m afraid…
deleted by creator
GrapheneOS, LineageOS, CalyxOS, DivestOS, /e/OS
These are all various forks of #1, and thus subject to the same issue.
You asked how to degoogle
Context, my friend.
And…move to iOS? The even more locked down platform? What solution are you proposing here?
Is there an echo in here?
Well that’s an easy fix. I just won’t use those apps.
So no banking apps for you? I agree that this is shit, but pretending we are not hit by this is not helping.
Also, I don’t really use banking apps anyway because they already pull similar shit and I can get around it. For now.
Fortunately so far I haven’t come across a bank here in the Netherlands that wouldn’t work because my phone was rooted or because I’m running grapheneos. Hope it stays that way too.
deleted by creator
True, but that just means no more contactless. They don’t entirely block you out of the app afaik, like many other foreign banks I’ve seen do.
Is there any reason anyone would want to use an out of date banking app?
I don’t know what you mean by that. Do you mean you rather use google pay?
I’ve never needed Google Pay because my banking apps are really good
I can’t think of any reason not to update them
Oh! With “get around it” I meant cash, not outdated software.
Removed by mod
You do you
Correct. I’ve never used banking apps in the first place anyway. If my bank doesnt have a functional website then I would change banks.
And i say this not to be difficult or contrarian. I just really hate using apps for every business in existence and simply refuse to do so. Yes I have absolutely sacrificed convenience on many occasions due to this principal.
Very good. I don’t like using apps for every little shitty website like discord or WebEx either.
Just know that this is a step forward in the direction of making it technically possible to force people to usw the app. Ask yourself if you trust them to not try and profit from this.
Just know that this is a step forward in the direction of making it technically possible to force people to usw the app.
I disagree. There is nothing stopping that as it is. What this really does is remove one more level of control from the end user on their device.
Ask yourself if you trust them to not try and profit from this.
Im not sure what you are getting at here. Of course i don’t trust “them”. Nor do i trust any corp. It’s those reasons among others why i have completely removed google from my computing life and almost exclusively use open source software as well as self host functionally all network services.
I disagree. There is nothing stopping that as it is. What this really does is remove one more level of control from the end user on their device.
That is exactly what I meant with that. Less control for you means more control for the banks/app creators.
I myself also want to let go of the likes of Google. It’s a pretty bumpy ride, but better than a future where the Tech Bros are in control.
Banking on the phone is absurd concept that I will never use
Let’s hope we don’t have to.
Honest question though: what are you using banking apps for?
On the rare occasion I need to actually interact with my bank, I log in using the browser.
There are, unfortunately, some features banks make mobile app exclusive (e.g. Zelle sometimes, check deposit).
I have a spare phone I keep in my drawer for when I really need a banking app.
My bank doesn’t have a web browser interaction ;(
WTF
I found the problem
I don’t.
I’ve seen people pay with something like that, but mostly it’s like an electronic checkbook. But yeah, browser is sufficient.
With banking apps in particular this lock down is ultra-stupid.
Like, I have to use your super secure app, or I can just… visit your page in a web browser running on god-knows-what with whatever extensions in any computing environment or OS of my choosing? But not using Google Play is where they draw the line.
What if I sideload purely to downgrade a bugged app? Just seems like yet another kick in the teeth by Google.
I thought you could not downgrade non-debuggable apps?
But you can uninstall them and install a lower version
You can always uninstall and install an older apk.
without uninstalling. that had a reason, safety, as apps are often not prepared to handle their “future” (relatively) config files and data formats
Google’s only providing the option, it’s up to individual devs to enable it on their app. If the app developer has chosen to block sideloading, then they probably have a reason for going out of their way to do so. Whatever you find that reason to be should inform your decision whether or not to continue using their app.
Their reasons mean nothing. It’s my device. I shouldn’t have to worry about an application installed on my device being policed because the developer got a hair up their ass about people downgrading.
The phrase “more secure” is becoming meaningless as it keeps being used as a blanket excuse for literally every user hostile change.
Sure, it’s your device. But it’s their app. Ultimately, it’s the developer’s call to make. You don’t have to use their app.
unless you are forced to use it, by government, employer, or such
Well then you know where to install it from.
from google play? on my degoogled phone?
Sounds like you’re using a phone that doesn’t meet the requirements specified by your employer. Might I suggest asking them for a company phone?
Sounds like the app developer does not want to support you as a user. You should take it up with devs that do this if that’s a concern.
We can still use their app with a little help from my reverse engineering tools.
Hopefully they don’t do online attestation
Cool, sounds like it ain’t a problem for you then. As I imagine it’s not a problem for most people.
Explain to me what would be the good reasons McDonald’s has to block their app from running on a rooted device because it doesn’t pass SafetyNet or whatever Google is calling it now
Because it is spyware?
Why would I explain something that has nothing to do with this discussion? This has nothing to do with rooted devices.
It’s the same system, it’s all part of play integrity. And that also applies to this bullshit, why does McDonald’s care if I didn’t install their app from the play store?
Can’t you use the website instead? Is the MCDonalds app necessary for orders? I use hermit to sandbox webapps for services which do not require a app.
Oh I don’t know if mcdonald’s specifically does this, I’ve never used the app, I just used it as an example because that’s what the guy above was talking about as well.
IIRC they did coupons exclusively in their app a few years ago where I lived (haven’t checked since), and they hiked the price of everything, so if you don’t install the app, you get a 20% surcharge in effect.
That goes for every single shitty chain store as well.
Why should I know? I’m not a McDeveloper.
If I had to guess, I’d assume it’s because there’s a payment system in their app and they don’t want people monkeying around with it and stealing food.
McDonald’s was just an example, the point is most apps don’t need to do that at all.
I do happen to know how payment systems like that work, and thankfully those are all cloud-based, the only thing the app does is start transactions and check with the server if they’re paid. If they implemented it well, as I suspect a big corpo like McDonald’s probably would, their own order screen also checks server-side if orders are paid. Not much you can do from the app side to mess with that.
the only thing the app does is start transactions and check with the server if they’re paid
Yeah, but the whole PCI DSS thing means that the app must still be secured. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it has to be tied to Google Play, but explain it to them.
🤡
If apps like fidelity will run on aurora store withithout safety net and other bullshit, then shiti McDonalds app can take the risk too.
You are poorly educated on the iseue or a bootlicker
Not a single app on my phone was installed through Google Play, it’s all Aurora. Guess if apps really do this i’ll just have to stop using them, cause I’m not installing the play store.
I wish i can degoogle my phone but its a few months old so no rom support and its a samsung :<
deleted by creator
I already use shizuku and savertuner they are soo good
I love you.
this is the reason phone selection for me is based on what it supports.
but samsungs are ruled out anyway. their service centers desttoys your phone if you have asserted your ownership of it, their software is way too unnecessarily complicated (not the part you see, but the low level part that complicates the flashing process), and they are generally a garbage company.
oh yeah you have to use their own software to flash but i never had samsung destroyed by them and they killed samsung dex pc app for mac but i think in a few years rom support for my phone will improve and there is also gsi roms you can use
its a relatively recent development. possibly it only applies to when you open it up, replace something inside but even if they are not searching for software modifications, the distinction is very small and you’re not likely to hear it in the news before experiencing it
oh
Samsung isn’t one of the best for roms. Anyway you could stop using it while you port Lineage OS
Yeah but it might be hard
How is it being a samsung making things worse? I’ve never flashed a samsung phone before so I may be very wrong, but isn’t unlocking the bootloader easy?
And now that I think about, does samsung have their own system file format or something? Is that the issue?
its bcs they use their own flashing method which got leaked
Omg I completely forgot they had a proprietary flasher, yeah that makes it much worse.
E: wasn’t there an open source implementation called Heimdall?
deleted by creator
E: wasn’t there an open source implementation called Heimdall?
I Would rather use Heimdall then the leaked odin flasher honestly
Quick question: what is the advantage of using Aurora to get apps instead of the Play Store?
I have Aurora but i don’t understand that, afaik both use the same APKs and can update interchangeably?
At first I thought Aurora remove some of the app’s tracking beacons but that’s not the case.
At least for me, Play Store impulsively updates itself. I would even say that some apps got updated even though I’d disabled auto updates.
I installed Aurora and disabled Play Store altogether. So I update apps manually whenever I want to.
BOOOOO!
YOUR DECISIONS ARE BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.
google, not op
they’ll just wipe their tears each with anotherbank note.
you know what we need to do? to cook them alive on the public square!
no, not directly because of this. it’s been long overdue.
time to demand apps in other repositories. Bonus if it’s f-droid compatible
Aw shit, it says this is supposed to detect when an app’s binary has been tampered with… That means it’s probably gonna be used to block stuff like ReVanced. I hope they can find a way around this that doesn’t require root.
Nah, revanced will just patch that out too!
I guess Revanced would eventually have a patch to skip this check. It can already spoof the client and such, why not this as well. I hope so
Can we also sue Google for the same shit as apple? Sideloading isn’t enough.
This is the individual app’s fault and not Googles. It’s like getting mad at Steam for allowing apps with DRM. Is feature is entirely optional and requires extra effort to implement.
Also didn’t Google already get sued in the USA for Android not being open enough or something like that.
The whole tech world saw Microsoft Palladium as a nightmare scenario, but was quiet ten years later when Apple and Google did the same thing to our phones. That was a mistake.
Maybe everyone was just OK with mobile devices being locked down heavily from the start, and now it’s more or less the same level for most
We had several years of Android that mostly wasn’t. Now it’s hard work to get Android that isn’t.
idk tbh, SafetyNet / Play Integrity have existed for a while
Since 2014, but Android had already been out for six years at that point.
Google Play IS my “sideloading” app repository.
deleted by creator
Google Pixel
deleted by creator
I’ve disabled what I can while I wait for my carrier to unlock it. Graphene awaits.
Some paid apps actually prevents the user from using it if it’s not paid from Google play
Are you suggesting such an app can be purchased outside Google play but not used?
Having an app check a license server isn’t exactly new. Google play is simply a third party license server.
No, but you can download the APKs anyways. Which is most likely exactly why this is being implemented. I doubt many developers of free apps are going to turn this feature on.
Yes they will. This tool would force users to always use the Play Store which would increase the download count on their app, which would help its ranking in the Play Store. Every last single developer is incentivized to use this.
On the other hand though, the amount of people who sideload free apps is very small because that’s only really interesting for people with degoogled smartphones.
The App Lounge from /e/OS has access to the play store if you choose to log in to Google. It is possible (but not recommended because of a possible ban) to purchase stuff, I haven’t done that yet, but some apps want to talk to Google to see if it was purchased and that gives an error.
For example, Wavelet can’t unlock paid status, All-In-One Calculator gives the option to link an email so it can restore paid status, Nova Launcher uses a different app to restore paid status so it works as well.
Kinda makes sense. A paid app on Google Play is a license to download the .apk file(s). Then a user could make copies, and without DRM, it’d be the same situation as with copyrighted movies and whatnot.
I’m not saying I support them, it’s just that they are like this for a reason
when will this shit be cracked.
That’s fine I rarely download apps that want to be on the Play store anyway
