I never understood how to use Docker, what makes it so special? I would really like to use it on my Rapsberry Pi 3 Model B+ to ease the setup process of selfhosting different things.
I’m currently running these things without Docker:
- Mumble server with a Discord bridge and a music bot
- Maubot, a plugin-based Matrix bot
- FTP server
- Two Discord Music bots
All of these things are running as systemd services in the background. Should I change this? A lot of the things I’m hosting offer Docker images.
It would also be great if someone could give me a quick-start guide for Docker. Thanks in advance!
Install Portainer, it helps you get used to managing docker images and containers before going full command line.
I actually prefer dockge, I only have a few containers and its a lot simpler while still able to do all the basics of docker management. Portainer was overkill for me.
IMHO with docker and containerization in general you are trading drive space for consistency and relative simplicity.
a hypothetical:
You set up your mumble server and it requires the leftpad 3.7 package to run. you install it and everything is fine.
Now you install your ftp server but it needs leftpad 5.5. what do you do? hope the function that mumble uses in 3.7 still exists in 5.5? run each app in its own venv?Docker and containerization resolve this by running each app in its own mini virtual machine. A container running mumble and leftpad 3.7 can coexist on host that also has a container running a ftp server with leftpad 5.5.
Here is a good video on what hole docker and containerization looks to fill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1tfmZDqo8Doesn’t that mean that docker containers use up much more resources since you’re installing numerous instances & versions of each program like mumble and leftpad?
Kinda, but it depends on the size of the dependencies, with drive space bing so cheap these days do you really worry about 50Mb of storage being wasted on 4 different versions of glib or leftpad
Docker containers aren’t running in a virtual machine. They’re running what amounts to a fancy chroot jail… It’s just an isolated environment that takes advantage of several kernel security features to make software running inside the environment think everything is normal despite being locked down.
This is a very important distinction because it means that docker containers are very light weight compared to a VM. They use but a fraction of the resources a VM would and can be brought up and down in milliseconds since there’s no hardware to emulate.
To put it in simpler terms, I’d say that containers virtualise only the operating system rather than the whole underlying machine.I guess not then.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters More Letters CA (SSL) Certificate Authority DNS Domain Name Service/System Git Popular version control system, primarily for code HA Home Assistant automation software ~ High Availability IP Internet Protocol LXC Linux Containers NAS Network-Attached Storage SBC Single-Board Computer SSD Solid State Drive mass storage SSL Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption
9 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 15 acronyms.
[Thread #592 for this sub, first seen 11th Mar 2024, 17:25] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]
There have been some great answers on this so far, but I want to highlight my favourite part of Docker: the disposability.
When you have a running Docker container, you can hop in, fuck about with files, break stuff as you try to figure something out, and then kill the container and all of the mess you’ve created is gone. Now tweak your config and spin up a fresh one exactly the way you need it.
You’ve been running a service for 6 months and there’s a new upgrade. Delete your instance and just start up the new one. Worried that there might be some cruft left over from before? Don’t be! Every new instance is a clean slate. Regular, reproducible deployments are the norm now.
As a developer it’s even better: the thing you develop locally is identical to the thing that’s built, tested, and deployed in CI.
I <3 Docker!
What about your preferences/configs/files (when you spun up a fresh one)?
The most popular way of configuring containers are by using environment variables that live outside the container. But for apps that use files to store configuration, you can designate directories on your host that will be available inside the container (called “volumes” in Docker land). It’s also possible to link multiple containers together, so you can have a database container running alongside the app.
The thing with Docker is that people don’t want to learn how to use Linux and are buying into an overhyped solution that makes their life easier without understanding the long term consequences. Most of the pro-Docker arguments go around security and that’s mostly BS because 1) systemd can provide as much isolation a docker containers and 2) there are other container solutions that are at least as safe as Docker and nobody cares about them.
Companies such as Microsoft and GitHub are all about re-creating and reconfiguring the way people develop software so everyone will be hostage of their platforms. We see this in everything now Docker/DockerHub/Kubernetes and GitHub actions were the first sign of this cancer. We now have a generation that doesn’t understand the basic of their tech stack, about networking, about DNS, about how to deploy a simple thing into a server that doesn’t use some Docker BS or isn’t a 3rd party cloud xyz deploy-from-github service.
Before anyone comments that Docker isn’t totally proprietary and there’s Podman consider the following: It doesn’t really matter if there are truly open-source and open ecosystems of containerization technologies. In the end people/companies will pick the proprietary / closed option just because “it’s easier to use” or some other specific thing that will be good on the short term and very bad on the long term.
Docker may make development and deployment very easy and lowered the bar for newcomers have the dark side of being designed to reconfigure and envelope the way development gets done so someone can profit from it. That is sad and above all set dangerous precedents and creates generations of engineers and developers that don’t have truly open tools like we did. There’s LOT of money into transitioning everyone to the “deploy-from-github-to-cloud-x-with-hooks” model so those companies will keep pushing for it.
Note that technologies such as Docker keep commoditizing development - it’s a negative feedback loop that never ends. Yes I say commoditizing development because if you look at it those techs only make it easier for the entry level developer and companies instead of hiring developers for their knowledge and ability to develop they’re just hiring “cheap monkeys” that are able to configure those technologies and cloud platforms to deliver something. At the end of the they the business of those cloud companies is transforming developer knowledge into products/services that companies can buy with a click.
Most of the pro-Docker arguments go around security
Actually Docker and the success of containers is mostly due to the ease of shipping code that carries its own dependencies and can be run anywhere. Security is a side-effect and definitely not the reason why containers picked-up.
systemd can provide as much isolation a docker containers and 2) there are other container solutions that are at least as safe as Docker and nobody cares about them.
Yes, and it’s much harder to achieve the same. In systemd you need to use 30 different options to get what using containers you achieve almost instantly and with much less hussle. I made an example on my blog where I decided to run
blockyin Systemd and not in Docker. It’s just less convenient and accessible, harder to debug and also relies on each individual user to do it, while with containers a lot gets packed into the image and therefore harder to mess up.Docker isn’t totally proprietary
There are a many container runtimes (CRI-O, podman, mirantis, containerd, etc.). Docker is just a convenient API, containers are fully implemented just with Linux native features (namespaces, seccomp, capabilities, cgroups) and images follow an open standard (OCI).
I will avoid comment what looks like a rant, but I want to simply remind you that containers are the successor of VMs (virtualize everything!), platforms that were completely proprietary and in the hands of a handful of vendors, while containers use only native OS features and are therefore a step towards openness.
Docker and the success of containers is mostly due to the ease of shipping code that carries its own dependencies and can be run anywhere
I don’t disagree with you, but that also shows that most modern software is poorly written. Usually a bunch of solutions that hardly work and nobody is able to reproduce their setup in a quick, sane and secure way.
There are a many container runtimes (CRI-O, podman, mirantis, containerd, etc.). Docker is just a convenient API, containers are fully implemented just with Linux native features (namespaces, seccomp, capabilities, cgroups) and images follow an open standard (OCI).
Yes, that’s exactly point point. There are many options, yet people stick with Docker and DockerHub (that is everything but open).
In systemd you need to use 30 different options to get what using containers you achieve almost instantly and with much less hussle.
Yes… maybe we just need some automation/orchestration tool for that. This is like saying that it’s way too hard to download the rootfs of some distro, unpack it and then use
unshareto launch a shell on a isolated namespace… Docker as you said provides a convenient API but it doesn’t mean we can’t do the same for systemd.but I want to simply remind you that containers are the successor of VMs (virtualize everything!), platforms that were completely proprietary and in the hands of a handful of vendor
Completely proprietary… like QEMU/libvirt? :P
but that also shows that most modern software is poorly written
Does it? I mean, this is especially annoying with old software, maybe dynamically linked or PHP, or stuff like that. Modern tools (go, rust) don’t actually even have this problem. Dependencies are annoying in general, I don’t think it’s a property of modern software.
Yes, that’s exactly point point. There are many options, yet people stick with Docker and DockerHub (that is everything but open).
Who are these people? There are tons of registries that people use, github has its own, quay.io, etc. You also can simply publish Dockerfiles and people can build themselves. Ofc Docker has the edge because it was the first mainstream tool, and it’s still a great choice for single machine deployments, but it’s far from the only used. Kubernetes abandoned Docker as default runtime for years, for example… who are you referring to?
Yes… maybe we just need some automation/orchestration tool for that. This is like saying that it’s way too hard to download the rootfs of some distro, unpack it and then use unshare to launch a shell on a isolated namespace… Docker as you said provides a convenient API but it doesn’t mean we can’t do the same for systemd.
But Systemd also uses unshare, chroot, etc. They are at the same level of abstraction. Docker (and container runtimes) are simply specialized tools, while systemd is not. Why wouldn’t I use a tool that is meant for this when it’s available. I suppose bubblewrap does something similar too (used by Flatpak), and I am sure there are more.
Completely proprietary… like QEMU/libvirt? :P
Right, because organizations generally run QEMU, not VMware, Nutanix and another handful of proprietary platforms… :)
but I want to simply remind you that containers are the successor of VMs
Successor implies replacement. I think containers are another tool in the toolkit of servers/hosting, but not a replacement for VMs
Try to run something that requires php7 and something else that requires php8 on the same web server; or python 2 and python 3.
You actually can, but it’s not pretty.
(The thing about a declarative setup isn’t much of a difference, you can do it for any popular Linux distro.)
Doesn’t that mean that docker containers use up much more resources since you’re installing numerous instances & versions of each program like PHP?
Oh, sure, the bloat on your images requires resources from the host.
There is the option of sharing things. But, obviously that conflicts a bit with maintaining your environments isolated.
