Today FUTO released an application called Grayjay for Android-based mobile phones. Louis Rossmann introduced the application in a video (YouTube link). Grayjay as an application is very promising, but there is one point I take issue with: Grayjay is not an Open Source application. In the video Louis explains his reason behind the custom license, and while I do agree with his reason, I strong disagree with his method. In this post I will explain what Open Source means, how Grayjay does not meet the criteria, why this is an issue, and how it can be solved.
It prevents commercial distribution of the program, and thus it discriminates against persons and groups who wish to distribute the program commercially.
Uhhhh what? That’s not how any of that works.
“No discrimination against persons or groups” is about protected classes.
Interpreting it to mean “anyone for any reason” would mean that open source allows people to simply assert sole ownership of it, because to not allow them to is to discriminate against people who want to assert sole ownership. That’s an ad absurdum broadening of the OSI ethos.
Edit: a helpful commenter has found where on OSI’s website it does prohibit non-commercial-use clauses…
…and the blog author was in fact incorrect in their assertion that it violates the personal discrimination clause (clause 5). It is a violation of Clause 6, “No Discrimination Against Field of Endeavor.” Also, the section specifically talks about prohibiting its use by a business, which is not the same as its sale by a business.
Let’s say Alice develops an application with maintainer lock-in, but for whatever reason the need for a fork arises. Bob has been studying the code and knows how to maintain in properly. However, because Alice’s code has a non-commercial redistribution clause Bob cannot make money off his maintainership. If the software is sufficiently complex that Bob has to spend a lot of time on it, or if Bob must be able to provide paid support (e.g. for regulatory reasons) he is not allowed to do so. Only Alice can demand financial compensation and thus in practice she is the only one who can afford to maintain the code.
Oh no. This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else’s code.
This person literally IS trying to just be able to start charging money for someone else’s code.
That happens all the time, never has been a problem, and it should not ever be.
“People steal the profits from others’ labor all the time, that’s normal and good.” - You
Open source is not a very useful term. Grayjay isn’t free and libre software because it restricts commercial use, and it is definitely source available software. Whether that makes it open source depends on who you ask, and no, OSI is not the undisputed arbiter of all things open source just because they say so.
Griping because someone is using a different definition of open source than you do when they are being very clear about what exactly their license allows is not productive.
It’s non-free, it’s non-libre, but it does pass the bar of open source software. The OSI, EFF, RMS or whoever don’t have to say it is in order for it to be true.
You can distribute it but there are limitations on it, you can make a fork of Grayjay that is free to use, review, re-distribute and add parts to it adhering to other open source licenses from whence they were developed as long as it’s non-commercial, and doesn’t make any representations on behalf of FUTO or Rossman, essentially.
I personally nerver really understood the whole semantics debate that always unfolds in situations like this. What does it matter if a piece of software is truly libre or how it is licensed as long as the source code is available? Respecting a license is a choice. If you have the code you can fork it. Whether it’s libre or not only influences your ability to put your real name under the fork, doesn’t it?
Personal opinion, but the license is fine, and this is a sensationalist headline. The author’s claims are not proven correct, and they even write:
The second point is weird. I am not certain, but this too could be considered discrimination…
They are not certain because they are incorrect.
As it stands, it sounds like a variant of GPL which they’re using to make sure they don’t get sued if it’s used maliciously, along with
ensuring companies don’t try to profit on what they give away(read comment below for better details).I’m open to changing my mind, but it would need to be changed.
ensuring companies don’t try to profit on what they give away.
That’s a common misunderstanding of FLOSS software: it isn’t about “not letting others profit”, it’s about “you need to give back in order to profit”.
If a company wants to profit from someone else’s GPL licensed software, they can do it in exchange for letting the original company profit from the second one’s changes to the software.
If you don’t want to profit from other people’s changes to your software, then by all means, use a more restrictive license, there won’t be changes in the first place.
If you’re a user expecting the software to work after the original company got bored with it or gone under, then you want either a different company to take over, or you’re SOL.
I’m getting brain damage from this thread. So many stupid people here.
We have only one rule here…be(e) nice. Your comments are NOT nice…enjoy a weeks vacation from Beehaw.
You skipped the part about wtf the app is and why we should care.
Grayjay is a platform that allows users to view YouTube alongside paid content like Patreon, or even live platforms like Twitch.
So I guess one more middleman between content and consumer.
Edit: their website loaded after 5 mins
So they are like: “don’t open twitch. open our website, it’s literally the same thing”. A super-app for video streaming? Who asked for this, and why?
The idea behind it per the video where they introduced it is that its a means of creators to take ownership of their own content. The idea being that if you follow creator X on youtube you arent actually following creator x you’re following them on youtube. If something happens or youtube removes a video for whatever reason of they have to leave the platform then you lose access to their content.
If you’re on this app you follow creator x on whatever platform they are on. So in theory it’s not just an all in one app but a way to solve the youtube monopoly and make for an easy transition.
In concept I think it sounds really cool, but whether it actually is able to deliver on it’s goals remains to be seen.
Who asked for this, and why?
It exists to reduce dependence on YouTube.
There are bad things to say about Google all day, yet consumers will still line right back up to use Google’s video service without fail. Having that content mixed in with other sites reduces dependence on YouTube over time, as creators consider decentralizing their media presence and posting content on Patreon, Nebula etc, instead of Youtube’s walled garden of Communities, Memberships and of course the channel itself.
IMO right now this app is really for people who want to support OR already are supporting creators, and are displeased with the amount of apps, bad UX and poor integration this experience entails when done outside of Youtube’s platform
If that’s not for you, then maybe the privacy aspect of Grayjay is of interest, where the YouTube integration allows you to control what data is associated with your Google account. Aside from those, most people should probably stick with their existing YouTube client. This app is targeting a specific kind of audience, and fits right in with Rossmann’s
