Why do you consider it as poisoning? I’ve heard the argument about not doing things the traditional Linux way (binary logs for example). But if the alternative provides so many benefits, why is it an issue? Systemd is a piece of cake for all parties compared to sysvinit and alternatives, so why is it bad when it solves so many issued, and makes it super easy to use by just adding e.g. a new option to a Unit?
Another example: timers are more complex than cronjobs, but timers offer additional needed features like dependencies, persistence, easy and understandable syntax, and more. So although more complex, once you get the hang of them, they’re a very welcomed feature imo
By itself, solely doing init, it would have been fine, however, binary logging (even if you eventually end up with a text log, that’s wasting disk space on a binary format no one wants or needs), and it didn’t stop there. He keeps replacing Linux subsystem after subsystem, and many of those replacements are not progress, just duplication of effort and creates more ways for configuration drift.
Here is the rationale for the Journal. In short it is really not that simple and it has a lot of advantages over simple text files and it saves disk space.
You can still forward to text syslog or to a central logging server like Loki if working with multiple hosts. I still don’t get the issue with binary logs.
Yes, and many distros have that out of the box… But they don’t have it sent to keep the binary journal as close to empty as possible. So you end up with twice the space in use for logs. As for the issue with binary logs, text logs can be read by far more tools and utilities, rather than just journalctl and pipes.
You can set the space limit for journals logs really low then, to avoid double space usage. As for the last argument, that also was an issue for me years ago because not all tools were compatible with the journald format, but that’s since long fixed now and I’ve not experienced any issue for a long time. Journal logs provide a standard format for all applications, so third party tools don’t need to be compatible with every log format of your applications. And it also comes with great additional features like -b or --since etc. So I still don’t get the issue here
I was arguing how it is a very useful tool with many great additions, rather than rely on the: “no old better!” reply based on ignorance. But it looks like your replies have turned full removed, so no point in continuing here to try and educate you.
Text is compatible with all the grep, awk, sed, text editors, what have you. As for the argument of it binary saving space, not on modern filesystems with compression, like zfs, btrfs, and bcachefs. The entire resistance against tampering is bogus, any systems where that is a concern already live scrape logs to an off server indexing service. If you are concerned about poorly formatted logs, that is an application configuration issue. Address it directly with the application. There are no benefits to a binary log, especially when journalctl is absolutely no faster at jumping to the end of the long log than standard less is. Poettering has you chasing phantoms. He always does. He’s like the politician who justifies horrible bills by saying it’s to protect the children.
It is. He is poisoning Linux, slowly, from the inside. Like the XZ attack, just smarter and much slower.
The guy who discovered the xz attack was also a Microsoft employee, for what it’s worth.
Maybe they discovered xz attack because they are familiar with these things.
Why do you consider it as poisoning? I’ve heard the argument about not doing things the traditional Linux way (binary logs for example). But if the alternative provides so many benefits, why is it an issue? Systemd is a piece of cake for all parties compared to sysvinit and alternatives, so why is it bad when it solves so many issued, and makes it super easy to use by just adding e.g. a new option to a Unit?
Another example: timers are more complex than cronjobs, but timers offer additional needed features like dependencies, persistence, easy and understandable syntax, and more. So although more complex, once you get the hang of them, they’re a very welcomed feature imo
By itself, solely doing init, it would have been fine, however, binary logging (even if you eventually end up with a text log, that’s wasting disk space on a binary format no one wants or needs), and it didn’t stop there. He keeps replacing Linux subsystem after subsystem, and many of those replacements are not progress, just duplication of effort and creates more ways for configuration drift.
Here is the rationale for the Journal. In short it is really not that simple and it has a lot of advantages over simple text files and it saves disk space.
Having the logs twice is saving space, got it. Do you hear yourself?
You can still forward to text syslog or to a central logging server like Loki if working with multiple hosts. I still don’t get the issue with binary logs.
Yes, and many distros have that out of the box… But they don’t have it sent to keep the binary journal as close to empty as possible. So you end up with twice the space in use for logs. As for the issue with binary logs, text logs can be read by far more tools and utilities, rather than just journalctl and pipes.
You can set the space limit for journals logs really low then, to avoid double space usage. As for the last argument, that also was an issue for me years ago because not all tools were compatible with the journald format, but that’s since long fixed now and I’ve not experienced any issue for a long time. Journal logs provide a standard format for all applications, so third party tools don’t need to be compatible with every log format of your applications. And it also comes with great additional features like -b or --since etc. So I still don’t get the issue here
The issue is logs are suppose to be text. Seriously, wtf. You some Poettering fan boy or something?
I was arguing how it is a very useful tool with many great additions, rather than rely on the: “no old better!” reply based on ignorance. But it looks like your replies have turned full removed, so no point in continuing here to try and educate you.
Text is compatible with all the grep, awk, sed, text editors, what have you. As for the argument of it binary saving space, not on modern filesystems with compression, like zfs, btrfs, and bcachefs. The entire resistance against tampering is bogus, any systems where that is a concern already live scrape logs to an off server indexing service. If you are concerned about poorly formatted logs, that is an application configuration issue. Address it directly with the application. There are no benefits to a binary log, especially when journalctl is absolutely no faster at jumping to the end of the long log than standard less is. Poettering has you chasing phantoms. He always does. He’s like the politician who justifies horrible bills by saying it’s to protect the children.